Anyone using CAT in production?

[Eric Chadwick]

I'm taking a closer look CAT (http://www.softimage.com/products/cat/default.aspx) because I might be working soon with a studio that uses it extensively in Max. Apparently they're using it for quadrapedal rigs, and had to write some extensions to do so.

I would argue for a different solution simply because I've heard it's a fairly closed system, but also because Softimage is probably back-burnering the thing to focus on their core XSI business. However, this studio is already deep into the pipeline with CAT and isn't likely to ditch it this late in the game.

Anyhow, tips or experience with CAT would be great to hear about. Sorry if I've missed any threads about it so far, pointing me there would help too.

[Rick Stirling]

Sorry, no, but I played with it for about 2 weeks alongside Puppetshop when looking at rigging possibilities for future projects. It seems VERY feature rich, and the motion retargeting could be a very useful tool.

Although it is another propriotery system it does seem to be fairly open for scripting.

Their wiki was fairly good: http://cat.wiki.avid.com/index.php/Main_Page

[samivRMD]

Eric, are you looking at scripting CAT or?

We've been using it for a few years, mostly on animal stuff and some placeholders. Custom scripting the stuff is a bit hairy, I'd avoid that like plague... Some of the CAT scripts themselves aren't very clean or robust either.

Our animators never figured out CAT's curve based animation system, which is a shame as I saw huge potential in it. So we've been using it just as a basic IK/Keyframing system.

CAT isn't the most stabile system (well, what in Max is... :) so test thorougly on what you plan to accomplish with it.

SamiV.

[Eric Chadwick]

Thanks guys, no just fishing for general info as I start looking into it more. If we start working together I want to understand their toolset as much as I can before diving in, hit the ground running.

[tzmtn]

Hi Eric,
I've been working with CAT for a long time. The studio I'm working in also depends on CAT deeply in it's pipeline. So I can easily say that CAT can hold very good for low to mid budget projects, as it takes about 1 to 3 days for me and my crew to rig and skin a character with it, depending on the importance of the character and the features you want to add to it.
I have yet to find a character that I couldn't solve with CAT and I have dealt with all kinds of animals, from bipeds threw quadrupeds and even birds, snakes and insects.
In compare to other solutions for max like pupetshop and biped I found CAT much stronger and animator friendly. I even prefer using CAT more then building a custom rig out of scratch only with max's tools since that way I can save a lot of time on the main features and focus my time and energy on the special features like muscles, fat tissues, all kinds of secondary motion etc.
Another huge advantage is the whole animation layer system in CAT, the way it easily jumps back and forth between rigging and animation modes and the clip/pose saving/loading system.
On the downsides I can say that since CAT was bought by softimage I felt a strong slowdown in it's development and bug handling. At one point it was even hard to get softimage answere our requests to buy new licenses or fix a problem with the old ones which was critical for us at the time.
What the animators think - they usually like CAT allot. I haven't seen many animators who uses CAT to it's maximum power by using the whole layer system, adding relative layers, mixing them, blending from one layer to another by animating local and global layer weights. The also usually prefer creating walk cycles them selves over using the CATMotion system. It's because it's all too technical for them. They also complain about the fact that in CAT you can't know how much did a bone rotate from it's original pose by looking at it's transformation values. I even tried to write them a tool that will let them freeze and reset a pose for a bone but found it hard to understand how the transformation works since every bone reacts different to transformation according to it's structure. Like for instance a hub's transformation is distributed along the spine leading to it.
One more thing before I go, CAT is filled with bugs, small and irritating ones, but it's usually nothing to stop production for and CAT's developers are still listening and fixing these bugs, slowly.
For conclusion CAT is a great tool and I hope it will keep on being my namber 1 solution for rigging in 3DS Max in the future.
Matan.

[Eric Chadwick]

Matan thanks for taking the time, I really appreciate the viewpoint!

[bclark]

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=12022457&siteID=123112

Autodesk will soon be Cats owner.. as it is buying Softimage.

All one big happy usergroup family now!

That might influence your choice.

[Rick Stirling]

Yeah, I wonder if they'll replace biped with CAT? Integrate the two systems.

Will Face Robot be integrated into Max/Maya?

(mind you, after 4 or 5 versions I'd argue that biped isn't integrated into Max).

[Eric Chadwick]

What a bizarre situation, Maya, Max, XSI, all under one roof. Well let's hope it goes well for the product lines.

[JHN]

Yeah, I wonder if they'll replace biped with CAT? Integrate the two systems.


Has max ever dropped a legacy feature? Biped will be probably in there till the end of days... never used it though... will be great if CAT was incoperated!

-Johan

[bclark]

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_free_cat_for_subscription_customers/#When:17:59:01Z

well look at this.
Any one wanting to use cat or thinking about it.. will get a chance (as long as they paid for subscription)

[Apparition]

Has max ever dropped a legacy feature? Biped will be probably in there till the end of days... never used it though... will be great if CAT was incoperated!

-Johan

Johan: I would not say biped is a "legacy" item! It has gone through so many evolution steps, from the very first one up to now! I love the motion editor, which is one of the best motion editors ever used! Recently I produced a complex 3D commercial where a bunch of chewing gum characters get engaged in a soccer game! The characters had to do a lot of complex moves, partly blends from bvh stock material, part of hand animation and step animation too!
I all cases, production went smooth as velvet, we have no instability problems with MAX at all and we find Biped, in combination with the somewhat weird "skin modifier" a perfect tool for character animation!
On the contrary, CAT is VERY "cryptic", non intuitive at all, there is a giant lack of information on it's usage, the famous "wiki" is a very informal source, and totally disorganized too. One thing for sure, if you can manage with CAT, and do all its tricks, you can as well manage a Lunar Lander or an Endeavor’s trip to mars!
Mike

[Adam Maxwell]

We have found CAT to be a huge time saver in our pipeline. The rigs are extremely robust and customisable. The curve based animation system is absolutely amazing. Layering is powerful and easy to use.

[JHN]

We have found CAT to be a huge time saver in our pipeline. The rigs are extremely robust and customisable. The curve based animation system is absolutely amazing. Layering is powerful and easy to use.

Have you noticed the shoulder is busted when using IK. The upperarm twist joint should stay aligned to the shoulders up vector, but it twists. I have a bone laying on top of it that is properly aligned to the shoulder, I wonder how other people are dealing with it.

To show the problem : http://public.subd.nl/screencasts/2009-05-27_1022.swf
You can clearly see the upperarm twist bone, not doing what it should do.

So have you encountered this and how do you deal with it?

Thanks,
-Johan

[loocas]

Have you noticed the shoulder is busted when using IK. The upperarm twist joint should stay aligned to the shoulders up vector, but it twists. I have a bone laying on top of it that is properly aligned to the shoulder, I wonder how other people are dealing with it.

To show the problem : http://public.subd.nl/screencasts/2009-05-27_1022.swf
You can clearly see the upperarm twist bone, not doing what it should do.

So have you encountered this and how do you deal with it?

Thanks,
-Johan

I personally treat CAT as an ANIMATION skeleton/rig. Then, on top of that, I have a DEFORMATION skeleton/rig which consists of many parts (muscles, fat, even sims etc...) to which I skin. So I can avoid such problems.

[swytch]

I'm trying to blend an Animation layer to a CAT Motion layer to get a character to walk to a point and then fall down. I'm moving the character using Walk on Path Node in the CAT Motion layer and that all works well.

I've tried using an Absolute layer to do the fall, but when I key the blending out the walk cycle, using the Global Weight of the Absolute layer, it causes the legs to slide to the footsteps just prior to the fall. I've adjusted the Path Node to near the prior footsteps, and that helps, but the feet still slide a little.

I've tried using a World Adjustment layer to do the fall, but when I key the blending using the Global Weight of the World Adjustment layer, the CAT Motion layer still keeps the walk cycle going.

I've tried putting either layer above the CAT Motion layer, but then keying the CAT Motion layer's Global and/or Local Weight does an ugly yank of the rig back to the origin. I also can't key anything on the rig.

I've tried setting the End of the CAT Motion Range in the Globals to the frame where the fall starts, but the walk cycle still keeps going.

I'm sure I'm missing something. I've checked Louis Marcoux's tutorials, but I don't think he ever shows how to blend out a CAT Motion cycle.