Are Riggers and TDs Secretive?

Rigging
#1

I’m currently a student studying 3D animation at university using 3ds Max and I wanted to get your feedback the question “are riggers and TDs secretive”? The reason I bring it up is that I think it’s difficult to find tutorials which go beyond the intermediate level which, I think, was set by Paul Neale and his rigging series for CG Academy. What I’m finding is, because I have no industry experience and have little knowldge of what an animator wants or what’s required in a professional studio, I’m having to try and reverse engineer the features that I see in demo reels to improve my knowledge and while I actually think that this process of deconstructing a system and trying to rebuild it is a very good way of learning, the point still remains - the resources for advanced level rigging seem to be slim.

I’m not trying to imply that riggers or TD are secretive or miserly with their knowledge, in fact I know riggers can talk passionately about their work in a professional environment, but perhaps I get the sense that keeping a few tricks up your sleeve is essential to differentiate yourself from your competition when it comes to applying for, and getting a job. And because rigging is so arbitrary - that is, having knowledge of, say, rigging a human can give you a good grounding for rigging animals, car, etc. - this compounds the issue.

Perhaps it’s because rigging is an experimental art best learned by trial and error or maybe it’s in part due to the relatively small size of the community or maybe I’m wrong and I’ve missed some advanced tutorials.

I’m keen to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for your time,
-Harry

#2

Not trying to answer the question, BUT, this did give me an idea I’m going to devote some time to today if there is interest. Why not create a website devoted to linking student animators up with student riggers (Student doesn’t really matter, but you get the point)? I created a wordpress site called animatormeetsrigger.wordpress.com [Not live just yet]. What do you think? One main rule, feedback on rigs created for any animators required. I thought wordpress since its free, but I’m open to suggestions. I just feel a hub for connecting up could be useful for those of us NOT in a studio trying to decipher things.

#3

I find that I come across a level in any skillset I’m pursuing where I have advanced beyond the basics but am not capable of understanding the need for more advanced things, thereby I feel that there is a lack of information available to me.
The reason I find is because I haven’t put my skills into practice, and I find this applies especially to rigging students. Except for a few schools, most just teach you the basics and then you’re on your way.

It’s not so much that there’s a lack of information, as a lot of rigging students don’t understand what is required of a truly production level rig.
A big part of this is:
a)Riggers are not animators and have no concept of friendly rigs and what it’s like to animate as a 3rd party to the rig.
b)Riggers aren’t in a total engineering mindset so can’t fathom a lot of the elegant complexity that can go into a rig.

I know a great number of rigging students, even ones hired as riggers, who have still not progressed beyond basic rigging skills and when I share cool techniques with them, or tutorials I found online, it goes right over their heads.
I would say start putting your skills into use, find an animator to try it with. You’ll start to look for ways to improve your rig and start coming across things YOU want to implement. Then you’ll go looking for it and find someone who has posted about it, and see that really there isn’t a lack of information. It’s all just knowing to look for what you need to look for.

#4

@ TreyAnesi: I think the website is a great idea, not just for learning purposes but also for building a portfolio for both parties

and for the question:
most tutorials are created to be basic and some do extend it a little bit, but the power of rigging is not just to learn everything from tutorials, it is to gain a basic mindset and knowledge to figure out your own rigs because there will be models that need rigs that can’t be solved with copying tutorials. and if you practise rigging a lot and know what animators want it is not that hard to create a high end rig. Or at least that is how i see it.

And as a tip: www.anomalia.eu is giving a 10 day workshop on rigging

#5

@peerke88 - As long as there is interest, I’ll move forward with it. I have a shell up at the moment, very simple, I’m not looking to re-create the wheel here or program a new asp.net one from scratch (Which is why I just chose wordpress). If anyone would like to be an admin just let me know and I’ll add you.

Basic idea:

  • Animators log on, post their needs
  • Student Riggers respond and connect
    1 Main rule, be respectful, and provide feedback.
    If it works well: all learn something/move forward in our profession/animation harmony/hugs n puppies all around- All good?:cool:

Current landing/shell page: http://animatormeetsrigger.wordpress.com/

I’m moving the website conversation over to here: http://tech-artists.org/forum/showthread.php?3497-Animator-Meets-Rigger-Idea-Based-on-another-individual-s-question
So as not to deject from the original posting/question on this thread. Thanks!

#6

Consider that Rigging should address needs in two directions: the animator and the export platform.
For film or pre- rendered stuff this is less important, but for games and real-time animation, it’s critical. -a lesson I am just now embracing.
Much of the rigging information I have seen online / in books / on DVDs has disappointingly little to say about this.

The idea that the rig you animate is not necessarily the rig you export was a bit of a revelation for me…

#7

@TreyAnesi - I think that’s a really good idea, as a student who’s looking to get in to rigging getting feedback from people who are serious about animation would be great.

As for my point about a lack of material, consider a scenario where you see a high resolution rendered character model on the homepage of CGHub or CGSociety; that image is probably at the same standard that you see in the tutorials on websites like Eat3D, Gnomon Workshop or ZBrush Workshop, but from watching many rigging demo reels I know that there are things that are shown which can’t be learned from tutorials.

Like I mentioned in my first post, I enjoy breaking down a rigging system and figuring out on my own how it is created but there are areas which, although I’ve seen then, I know nothing about - like loading motion capture on to a rig.

#8

Harry,

I recall having similar frustrations in the lack of information available on advanced rigging techniques when I was getting started. I think there are multiple reasons for this ranging from NDAs with their employers to not having any free time to put together tutorials on top of the fact that, like Perry said, advanced rigging is not a step by step process.

That last part is important and requires some elaboration. For me, advanced rigging is not about complexity, it actually about simplicity. It is about visual problem solving. That means understanding design principles like line, form, rhythm and appeal - then use the basics of rigging to deform your character in a way that upholds those design principles. Notice I said using the basics of rigging. A simple rig that articulates with appeal is much more valuable to the animators I work with than a complicated spider web of controls and dials and automation.

I’m sure that answer is not really information you are looking for, but really you do have to know what the visual goal is first. Then you can make choices (never arbitrary) on which deformer or setup will best achieve those goals in your software of choice. Good luck!

#9

Although what Evad says is true, I also believe that the approch a rigger takes when making a rig is mostly based on personal experience and problem solving. Most of it learned the hard way via rigorous trial and error. Thus, giving away your distilled experience may to some be quite an uncomfortable move.

On that note, due to the personal approach, any given solutions and techniques may, to others, seem quite simply unintuitive or inefficient.

Rigging is one of the areas within cg that simply isnt standardized enough for complex solutions to become common knowledge.

#10

There are a lot of helpful technical artist that will answer your specific questions almost immediately in mailing groups. But I can’t imagine posting what I know on blogs … It’s not that I want to be secretive. It’s just… I don’t know what to post. I don’t even think my thinking process would make any sense to other people when it comes to scripting stuff :frowning:

#11

our google hangouts are a good place for information like this.

#12

Thanks again for your posts.

@panupat: Could I join a rigging mailing group?

@UncCheezy: Could you tell me more about the google hangout?

#13

I’m relating to the replies given so far. My co-rigger and I actually studied together and have been working in the same studio since – but still have arguments over our styles and approach.
Part of that is personality, another is the self-taught factor: we both took different learning paths to get beyond course material so we could find what we needed to know.

I’m fortunate enough to work with riggers and TDs who share information very freely, professional environment or no. But a lot of the students I’ve seen them talk with aren’t at the stage where they can digest the information they’re asking for. Often they’ve only followed along with tutorials and haven’t invested some time in learning how their software package works. That gets them a bit restricted to following set formulas (…tutorials) rather than taking inspiration from them.

So it could be a case of needing to dig, to learn more about the structure of your software package, start working on a variety of rigs, letting that show you what questions to ask and prepare you to go further with the answers.

#14

I think it has less to do with secrecy and more to do with the highly specialized nature of advanced rigging (or programming, or really any discipline). In many cases the scenarios become so job specific that trying to teach them becomes impossible without a great deal of background information and a complex base setup.

There isn’t some super-secret technique that makes someone an expert in their respective area of study, but rather their ability to combine and apply the basic building blocks in an efficient manner to solve non-standard problems. Critical thinking and problem-solving can’t be taught outright in a tutorial. Practical application and adaption of these techniques across different (non-tutorial) projects is what brings someone to the next level.

Other riggers (mentors, experts, seniors and even juniors) will always be able to teach you new things, but at some point it transitions away from full blown, start-to-finish lessons and into a series of tips and tricks that you can include in your own personal toolkit.